Forgiveness
is it possible to ask God for other people's forgiveness? Jesus did it on the cross, and stephen did it just before the mob killed him in acts. what would be the ramifications of this? does God answer this prayer, or is it something that we can just pray and let him do with it what he wants?
posted by jpunk5 | 10:04 a.m.
13 Comments:
Ohhh, good one!
Let's see: well, we have to allow Jesus special consideration. After all, he had (has?) the power to forgive sins all by himself (that's one of the claims that upset the Pharisees, right?). In Stephen's case, isn't a case of "I'm-not-holding-a-grudge-so-don't-count-this-as-sin"? If the person sins against you (like trying to stone you to death), then I think it's possible. I mean, I don't think I can ask God to forgive someone for shoplifting, but if someone stole from me, I could say "God, forgive them" because as the injured party, I have that...what's the right word?... right(?).
ok, so this thing on prayer reminded me of a quote that i (sarah) would like to share with you. it's from c.s. lewis:
"praying for particular things,"said I,"always seems to me like advising God how to run the world. Wouldn't it be wiser to assume that He knows best?" "On the same principle,"said he,"I suppose you never ask a man next to you to pass the salt, because God knows best whether you ought to have salt or not. And I suppose you never take an umbrella, because God knows best whether you ought to be wet or dry." "That's quite different,"I protested. "I don't see why,"said he. "The odd thing is that He should let us influence the course of events at all. But since He lets us do it in one way I don't see why He shouldn't let us do it in the other."
There are also examples of people praying for forgiveness of others in the old testiment. God has the power and ability to forgive the sins of the people we pray for. The food for thought that I have for all of you is this: God has already forgiven our (mine, yours, and our neighbors) sins but it is up to us to accept his forgiveness and repent for our sins. So maybe our prayer instead should be for the humbling of the persons heart to see his/her mistakes and then want to seek forgiveness for them. What do you think?
Hey! Sarah's here (I was so about to say "in the house"... I'm so ashamed). Anyway, YAY. Good to have you here.
I still think that when you forgive people like Stephen and Jesus did you're telling God that your release them for sinning against you. I think you can pray that God forgives someone's sins that have nothing to do with you, but isn't that more a open-their-eyes-to-Your-forgivenss type of thing?
ya. i agree. i can say please forgive this person which may be a kind of round about way of saying that you forgive them, but if it takes a broken heart and spirit of repentence, you can't do that for anyone else.
Hey Roslyn... Glad you're along for the ride.
I guess the question becomes does a person need to be repentant for their sins to be forgiven (which would mean they would have to be aware of their sin as well) I believe their is some place in the bible (I'll try to find it) where Paul asks the church to forgive those who have wronged them, because anyone they forgive will be forgiven. I guess I just think of intercessory prayer and I think their might be some power in that... but maybe it includes praying for a softening of heart.
Like most things we can pray for, God will or will not grant our request based on more than just our asking. For instance, the subject's repentance.
However, asking for things from God isn't all about getting them, it's also about keeping track of our own hearts - praying for another's forgiveness is a pretty good litmus test for whether you yourself want to forgive them.
Still, the question remains. Either way, I think it would be humbling to learn that someone you had hurt was praying for your forgiveness. Better than that, it might make it feel more possible to be forgiven at all.
Right. Like C.S. Lewis said (somewhere), "prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." Unfortunately many people don't let the prayer change them. They pray with "righteous" indignation. An honest prayer for the forgiveness of others (whether it's granted or even can be granted) should, needs to, evoke change in our lives.
yeah, like even really learning to pray sincerely for others can cause us to get a greater sense of God's love for that person. I have trouble with saying that prayer only changes ourselves though, not that it changes God, but it has to do something more, I have not completely figured it out, I'm just sure that there is more power in prayer than just changing the person who is praying
So can we change God's mind?
First response would be "No, of course not. God's perfect."
But the Old Testament has some passages that clearly suggest that God reconsidered some decisions after His people prayed.
While I don't think that's all prayer does, I firmly feel that changing us is its primary function.
Well, of course prayer is a function of our desire for something. The two are linked, and yes, our desires are certainly something God takes into account. Particularly righteous desires. Praying for something is a demonstration of our desire - I don't think the demonstrating is really the point, but it will come naturally if your desire is strong enough and real enough.
Don't forget, too, that once you've prayed for something you create an attachment to it happening. If you've been praying hard and often for something, and it happens, the effect on you will undoubtedly be different. You can then recognize it as an answer to prayer, YOUR prayer, which is an outcome I think God is very interested in producing. Maybe not enough to change his mind, but then again, maybe...
So by praying for, say, a sunny day (mundane, I know), are we being selfish? What about farmers who need rain? Are we missing the "your will be done on earth as it in heaven" part of the LP? As we are in conversation with God more and more, shouldn't our prayers open us up to His will? (so "I'd really like a sunny day, but let whatever you have planned happen).
*NB: I know we've switched from forgiveness to prayer. Hope that's cool.
Well, I think it's alright if it's largely implied. Problems certainly do come up when people think they know better than God, that God should be doing what they ask for merely because they ask it.
Yet I think it's... maybe unnecessarily verbose to say the words 'if it be your will' after *every* request we ever make of God. Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.
God takes our desires into consideration, for sure, but unless you're forgetting who's who (easier to do than it might sound), you shouldn't have trouble accepting the answers 'no' or 'wait'.
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